There is a point we agree on. That abortion is a difficult process. I have met many people who believe that the ´pro choice´crowd push abortion. Iam a strong advocate for counseling before and after an abortion. Each woman knows her life and her body better than any other person, so it isnot up to me to offer my advice or my push my opinion to a pregnant woman.
You mentioned early on ´The entity inside women that is being terminated by abortion, or emergency contraception in some cases, is not your or my own body.´ i think this is a fundamental point for the abortion debate. I copy and paste this next part because i could not have said it better myself
¨No matter how much value we place on a fetus's potential life, it isstill inside the woman's body. To pretend that the pregnant woman isseparate - or as the discussion of fetal surgery suggests, irrelevant andnon-existent - is to deny her not only her rights, but also her humanity.¨www.protectchoice.org
The fact is, the fetus is a part of the women´s body. you mention that then newborn baby could not survive with out mothering. i agree. but i disagree that a fetus is on the same plane as a newborn baby. distinctions must be made. your definition would also place disabled people, or old people who cannot care for themselves and must be fed- bathed, etc. on the same level as a fetus. A baby is inside the woman for 9 months for a reason. It is developing neccesary organs -heart, skin, spinal cord, etc. If you took the baby out too soon by c-secion perhaps, it would not survive no matter how much ´mothering´you gave it. the analagy was also given that the baby is living because it is not the same as a human leg? i failed to follow the logic of this arguement. could you elaborate please, annie.
Let´s discuss contraception. i completely agree with you that some are dangerous to women´s health. which is dispicable and should be punishableby law. Some companies have knowingly profited by unsafe contraceptives andsold them anyways. ¨Depo was involuntarily tested on 14,000 women from 1967 to 1978, byUpjohn, Inc. 50% of the subjects were African American, low income andrural women subjected to trials without their consent. Today poor women,women of color, and young women are targeted users.¨
But there are alternatives. And these alternatives should be safe, and the proper information given. If there are risks they should be known. For example, certain contraceptives can cause a higher rate of breast cancer. Then this is the choice of the woman to decide if she wants to take that risk or not. The information should not be withheld, nor should contraception be pushed. There are many resonably safe options out therethough, including condoms. sex education: while this is increasing related to AIDS, STD´s, and pregnancy the sad fact is that the government is on a campaign to limiti nformation that could be life saving. ¨Between 1996 and 2005, Congress committed over $1.1 billion through both federal and state matching funds to "abstinence-only" programs. Virtually no money went to comprehensive sex education. Today the only sex education for more than a third of all students is "abstinence only," even thoughthis curriculum teaches falsehoods about condom effectiveness rates andother matters.¨
(*this statistic was disputed by Annie, but i could not find any reliable sources to support her claim that the goverment has a large budget for sex education)
You brought up the Uganda solution, you wrote: ¨From thePresident on down, they emphasized abstinence not condoms, not abortion,and they have seen great results in reducing STDs and abortions¨
You misunderstand the Uganda solution. The name of the program is called the ABC approach. A - abstain, B be faithfull, C use condoms. where did you read your info? here is some more info about Uganda.
¨Reports of consistent condom use by men rose to more than 50 percent by 2002, compared with 10 percent a decade earlier. Among women, reports of condom use rose from virtually zero to 25 percent.
¨ABC is far from all that Uganda has done. Uganda, he noted, "pioneered approaches towards reducing stigma, bringing discussion of sexual behaviorout into the open, involving HIV-infected people in public education, persuading individuals and couples to be tested and counseled, improvingthe status of women, involving religious organizations, enlisting traditional healers, and much more."
¨The U.S. researchers found that the single greatest factor lowering the percentage of Rakai people infected by HIV was the premature deaths ofthose who were infected earlier with HIV and subsequently died of AIDS....In the Rakai district, however, researchers found that abstinence andfidelity have actually been declining, but the expected rise in HIVinfections stemming from such behavior has not occurred.
There is simply not enough funding of government programs to pay for childcare, health problems, followup doctor visits, etc.¨Approximately 40 million Americans, including about 9 million children, lack health insurance. It is estimated that an additional 10 - 15 million people have some coverage but not enough, and that an additional 2 million people have lost other health plans along with their jobs in therecent economic downturn.¨ www.motherfriendly.org¨
"22% of America's already born children live in poverty¨
"a pregnant womanwould not be covered for any injury or disease she suffers that does notdirectly affect the pregnancy, nor apparently, would she be covered if shesuffers a miscarriage or stillbirth, as more than 900,000 women do eachyear¨
there are quite a few other statistics i didn´t have time to find exactwebsites for. For example the amount of cases prosecuted of child abuse is about one percent. There is too much backlog and not enough workers. Or daycare centers for mothers who need to work to support the family are too expensive and the families will end up forgoing medial care or other vital options.
Last topic - evironment: This is existing all over the world, including the U.S. Right now there are over 1,305 superfund sites scheduled for cleanup
¨About 11 million people in the U.S., including 3-4 million children, livewithin 1 mile of a federal Superfund site and confront potential publichealth risks¨
¨Reproductive toxicity may be expressed as alterations in sexual behavior,decreases in fertility, or loss of the fetus during pregnancy.¨ visit the website for the list of over 80 toxicants that are recognized.(not including those that are suspected) that are in these superfund sites.
-lawsuit against General motors for contaminating the lt lawerence rivermaking it unsafe to breastfeed.
¨All scientific experts agree that exposure to mercury is especially toxicto fetuses and children. Like lead, mercury is a highly toxic heavy metalthat can cause brain damage and learning disabilities, and often causesirreversible neurological damage.¨
¨Within the U.S., an estimated 10 tons of highly toxic mercury arereleased to the environment each year from mercury-containing lightswitches during the shredding and crushing of old vehicles¨
I chose to use a lot of quotes for this one, to help show that this is just a small sample of tons of info of problems related to female health andchildcare other than abortion.i hope this shows that there is a wider debate than making abortionillegal. And those of us that cannot agree about the right to abortionshould all argree on these other topics. That there is substantial healthrisk to ALL people because of the environment. this includes pregant womenand children. There is currently not enough programs for children inpoverty, or pregnant mothers to be raising healthy children. And that´lifesavings education of STD´s pregancy prevention is inadaquate.
Annie`s Reply to me about Uganda:
The info I have is that "Uganda's success against HIV is due to abstinence, behaviour change and community, not condoms" as found in a study published in SCIENCE journal. http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/ed007047-0e93-4964-9fba-aa887d42817e.asp :
As for later reports that "condom use was responsible for Uganda's stable levels of AIDS", we debunked that study here, two years ago, http://afterabortion.blogspot.com/2005/02/its-condoms-that-are-responsible-for.html .
My reply to Annie:
found the Uganda statistics that i posted from a consensus of seven websites i looked at. They were not pro choice sites. And the C in the ABC approach Does stand for condom. and you blatantly stated in your first response that condoms were not used. Most my information was found on government funded websites - who seek to promote it. The perception of Human Rights Watch is actually not that great in many conflict countries. I think their research is important, but they are still a U.S dominated human rights group. Therefore they are considered rather conservative and what they say must be taken with a grain of salt.
I read the study that you cited saying condoms didn`t work in Uganda. Here are some problems I found with it. I will compare your website to the USAID source. This is the source that founded and promoted the ABC approach. (rather than choosing a critical website of the ABC approach) Because in fact the ABC approach is criticized heavily by most human rights groups. I`ll call your website NAM.
1. NAM: says ¨Cambridge investigators established that HIV incidence was declining in Uganda by the late 1980s, and that by 1995 there had been significant declines in HIV prevalence, ¨-
but... u.s.aids shows that AIDS rates kept climbing and even peaked in 1992.
NAM: "The investigators established that HIV prevalence in pregnant women aged 15-24 peaked at 21% in 1991, but by 1998 had fallen to 9.7%,
-u.s. aids show that it peaked at 30% in 1991
NAM: ¨The number of individuals reporting casual sex in neighbouring countries did not change substantially between these dates. (1993 -2000)
¨u.s.aids In Kenya, there has been a marked decline in prevalence in recent years, (1) during which time national surveys have reported clear, positive changes in sexual behavior.- in Kenya from 1998 to 2003 reported more than a 50% drop in casual sex. (just like uganda)
NAM¨.... However, comparable numbers of Ugandans and individuals living in neighbouring countries reported condom use. This suggested to the investigators that “reduction in sexual partners and abstinence among unmarried sexually inexperienced youth … rather than condom use,¨
ME: - The whole basis for this claim is completely refuted. Not only was the issue very simplified they did not even use correct info. Excluding a 50% reduction rate in casual sex in Kenya is a large statistic to `get wrong` . And it is off of this deleting of information that it was concluded that condom use was ineffective! also, on this SAME website (NAM - Aidsmap) they say this:
¨although a recent study presented at the Twelfth Annual Retrovirus Conference in Boston last February, found that it was mortality, and not behaviour change, that was responsible for 80% of this reduced prevalence in one Ugandan district.¨ they also quote Human Rights Watch condoning the fact that information of condom use is being withheld in many districts. perhaps you viewed the part of NAM Aidsmap that was tampered with.http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/EF01AD9F-9733-412C-B282-30DF89760ED1.asp
you say ¨I'm not putting your comment through on the PLB because it isn't a forum for those who refuse to accept bona fide scientific research and scientists who have the proofs to validly disagree with the abortion establishment¨ hmmmmm
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